tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post4939533783323758461..comments2023-12-30T00:30:21.906-08:00Comments on The Hippie Housewife: The Rod Verses: Taking the rod verses literallyHippie Housewifehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14718357472343295031noreply@blogger.comBlogger83125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-52721435362373180622019-09-04T21:08:57.260-07:002019-09-04T21:08:57.260-07:00It's about time someone shrinks it down to all...It's about time someone shrinks it down to all the details to show the fanatics of this world the truth. Thank you<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15979265367036394213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-71758264918060739142019-08-27T15:27:04.228-07:002019-08-27T15:27:04.228-07:00Thanks, but I don't need all that to know it&#...Thanks, but I don't need all that to know it's not right to strike a child. Dulsimanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17185914642472952696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-6595035818578231772013-07-19T21:58:17.366-07:002013-07-19T21:58:17.366-07:00Hippe Housewife.....even if all the "worldly&...Hippe Housewife.....even if all the "worldly" studies in the universe pointed towards any given topic, would you take that over what the true and living Word of God commands and teaches? Regardless of it being spanking, homosexuality, feminism......the world has all sorts of studies to prove and approve their point of view. As Christians, we are taught that the Word of God is the final standard/authority and it shouldn't make one lick of difference what such and such a study has to say about the ill effects of spanking or conversely the fruit it does bear. All true believers must decide if they will take the side of Scripture and stand fast to what it teaches or be swayed by every wind of doctrine (from the world's point of view). I find your arguments to be emotionally based, without truly understanding the heart of God. God's heart is motived by love, but He is a God of justice. Justice means that there must always be a punishment for the "crime." Since God's very nature is love, what He does commands of spanking is to fully be sturated in love, meaning consistently, in a self-controlled manner and with the intent to lead to restoration. If I fully rely on my emotions I will ask the question, "How could a loving God allow His only Son to be beaten, spit on, mocked and crucified?" Does that honestly look like love? But.... as we know from Scripture, God's wrath fully poured out on Jesus Christ was actually the greatest measure of love. That is why using the rod in a consistent and controlled manner is a means to deliver a soul from hell, because it points our children to their great need for the Savior, Jesus Christ. A child who is never properly disciplined grows up with little understanding of the severity of sin in God's eyes, since the alternate method is always distracting them or making a little joke out of their disobedience. They will not see that their sin demands a just payment since mom and dad made light of it by "redirecting" or putting them in a time out spot. And since I fully believe in a God of love, grace and mercy, I could never (being Spirit-filled) allow the rod to become a tool of abuse. Obviously the hot debate about the rod being abuse is only for those who do not understand that the use of it must first be based on love. That is why Prov. 13:24 reads, "Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him." Yikes, I would hate to be accused of hating my son!Toplovshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356586216638573169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-75807395683691160492013-07-19T21:18:27.004-07:002013-07-19T21:18:27.004-07:00I completely agree with Spokane Realator. Culture ...I completely agree with Spokane Realator. Culture has dictated our thoughts on spanking instead of Scripture. Do you not hear all around everyone yelling that God is love, but no one wants to talk about God being a God of justice. I find Hippie Housewife's arguments based on emotions and the culture around us, rather than on the principles of Scripture. Toplovshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04356586216638573169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-37401546621083126122013-04-01T10:19:24.607-07:002013-04-01T10:19:24.607-07:00Great point, spanking is used a way to instruct a ...Great point, spanking is used a way to instruct a child without having to use the Bible. The Bible says that knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. The world sees that children who have been raised by this principle are obedient and those who aren't don't behave. So what do they do? Force them by using physical attacks in order to create a blind obedience, which doesn't last very long. You can ask any prison inmate if they have been beaten when they were children by their parents and they will say yes. It's the parents failure to not raise them in the fear and admonition of Lord that breeds disobedience rather than the use of physical beatings.<br /><br />"Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it." - Proverbs 22:6<br /><br />The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding" -Proverbs 9:10Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14180762595453441483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-24885212139418035642013-04-01T10:09:17.611-07:002013-04-01T10:09:17.611-07:00"Punish them with the rod and save them from ..."Punish them with the rod and save them from death. (NIV)" - Proverbs 23:14<br /><br />If you do a study on this verse, the Hebrew for "punish" does not always mean to beat or hit, as we know the word. Numbers 14:12 uses the same word when it says, "I will smite them with the pestilence,". No one thinks that they will physically be beaten with something called "Pestilence". It simply means to inflict or affect someone with. People aren't only "affected" by physical punishment. If so, the Bible won't use the word to mean something non-physical like in Numbers 14:12.<br /><br />If the "rod" was what saved a soul from death, why was the Bible even written? Proverbs is all about wisdom and instruction, why then suddenly bring up hitting someone?<br /><br />You have touched on my biggest point, no where in the Bible does it say how, when and the extent of spanking. There are no instructions. There aren't even any examples. <br /><br />The Bible is silent on this issue everywhere else other than the few verses in Proverbs thats true meaning has been lost in translation and edited using archaic words that have changed meaning.<br /><br />Spanking is quite lazy, in my opinion, because it contrasts the Bible so drastically. We are to be raising the children in the fear and admonition of the Lord (Ephesians 6:4). Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word (Romans 10:17). Train a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it (Proverbs 22:6). Teach my commands diligently to your children (Deut. 6:6-7).<br /><br />These are all mandates to verbally instruct. Simply hitting them does not produce any of this. This is why in Deuteronomy, the stoning mandate was after you've tried to instruct and discipline, it was the last and end resort for a child, it wasn't corporal punishment, it was death. <br /><br />Knowledge of the Holy One is understanding (Proverbs 9:10). You do not get knowledge by hitting, otherwise prisoners would be the most educated people out there.<br /><br />Proverbs 19:18 "Discipline your son while there is hope, And do not desire his death." You can see the reference to the other Proverbs verse about saving a soul from death. <br /><br />"For the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life," Proverbs 6:23<br /><br />"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid." -Proverbs 12:1<br /><br />Discipline is only defined one way in Proverbs and that is teaching and instructing with knowledge. <br /><br />Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14180762595453441483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-90382096650341525122013-03-13T17:18:27.454-07:002013-03-13T17:18:27.454-07:00The efficacy of such techniques should not be our ...The efficacy of such techniques should not be our primary focus. The question is not, "does spanking work to modify a child's external behaviour?" but rather, "is this biblically mandated and/or right?" Anecdotal stories certainly go both ways, but the studies of the long-term effects of spanking are far more unified.Hippie Housewifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14718357472343295031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-68228843077762811902013-03-11T09:14:30.437-07:002013-03-11T09:14:30.437-07:00It amazes me the length some ppl go to to justify ...It amazes me the length some ppl go to to justify physically hurting a young childAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-64255099402856914042013-03-08T04:41:57.141-08:002013-03-08T04:41:57.141-08:00All said,I have been babysitting for 30 years and ...All said,I have been babysitting for 30 years and my experience is that the children of the parents that believe spanking is a viable form of discipline are much more pleasant to be around,as a rule.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04148715147680575030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-33231868534106963582013-02-07T18:52:06.288-08:002013-02-07T18:52:06.288-08:00Thank you so much for this post - you wrote it a l...Thank you so much for this post - you wrote it a long time ago, but as a mama with two 18-month-old twins and now getting the "time to discipline" lectures, which includes swats and time outs, this is balm for my soul and affirmation that I am on the right path. Thank you thank you :) Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15974438034424014908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-44696742815091016352012-11-30T10:34:56.111-08:002012-11-30T10:34:56.111-08:00Well said KarenK, These people don't want span...Well said KarenK, These people don't want spankings, or beatings to be used on themselves, only on their children. Doesn't that speak volumes? Why on the smallest members of society who are still so immature and learning, but not on those who darn well know better and still do wrong. No one goes to a man and says, you "disobeyed me, now bend over you are getting 5 licks), but yes for the dear young child because surely in his 2 yrs on earth he should darn well know better and he will after I beat it into him. Love and Grace for the win! (<----sarcasm)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-82321749032019365562012-10-26T17:54:29.042-07:002012-10-26T17:54:29.042-07:00I have mixed emotions, as my parents did spank me,...I have mixed emotions, as my parents did spank me, and I never doubted their love and feel I have very healthy relational patterns. I do wonder if it depends on the child how it affects them later in life. My brother and sister who were much more rebellious and strong-willed were spanked much more and much older than I was. Chicken or egg, I wonder? <br /><br />I have used some ("biblical") spanking sparingly with my son (almost 3) but have backed off as of late. I still feel we have a healthy bond. My friend gave me some wisdom, we will be remembered for the things we are characterized by, not the occasional mess-ups. I am I look forward to reading some of your other posts and getting more perspective. <br /><br />I think looking at each child as an individual is important and seeing what type of discipline works best for each kid is key though. I am frustrated by those who spank for every wrong-doing, and who spank every child, even if that particular child would respond to something much gentler.<br /><br />I still don't have it all figured out for our family. I do know that I have gotten some pretty rotten feelings in the pit of my stomach after spanking. And I also know my mom says if she could go back and do it over again she would do much less corporal punishment. <br /><br />I have decided to take a step back and see what I can learn about other methods and pray for discernment (we already use a lot of natural consequences and occasional timeouts.) Example of a natural consequence: "If you do not get ready for bed well(fighting about teeth brushing, or refusing to try potty, etc.), we may not have time to read a story before sleep."Aliciahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01607316900326595718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-23009630294099047342012-09-25T12:37:55.645-07:002012-09-25T12:37:55.645-07:00I am so grateful for the time you spent on this su...I am so grateful for the time you spent on this subject. It has confirmed what I felt in my heart all along. Now I am a recovering spanker and my kids are so much happier (and better behaved) now! I am revisiting your article now to brush up on the info. after a very upsetting home church visit. A six year old was spanked after the service because he was talking some to my 2 year old. When I got home I told my children how proud I was of them for sitting there for an hour listening to the adults. In contrast, that poor 6 yr-old was spanked. I have been so upset since. I do not understand why he was spanked and why would you want to make church something dreaded and even feared. It is so sad!T. Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17896762703165424864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-29851149432619692252012-06-16T12:25:22.647-07:002012-06-16T12:25:22.647-07:00Hi I just discovered your blog and have so far jus...Hi I just discovered your blog and have so far just read the first part of your series on spanking and the Bible. I've been one of those Christian parents struggling to decide what is the right choice between spanking or not. I wasn't spanked so you think it'd be an easy decision and just be natural for me not too, but unfortunately that hasn't been the case. I've also struggled with some examples of attachment parenting that were not positive. Anyway this was really well written and, as He's known to do, God brought this post to me at the perfect time. I'm looking forward to reading more and I'm very interested in alternative solutions for discipline (as opposed to punishment) with the different situations and age groups as well. Thank You very much for writing this series and God Bless! <br />Sincerely, <br />KBKBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-8177003376057923772012-02-08T06:00:19.128-08:002012-02-08T06:00:19.128-08:00Just found this blog via FB. Spokane Realtor, it s...Just found this blog via FB. Spokane Realtor, it seems odd that you jump to the far-fetched conclusion that children who aren't spanked will often become criminals. Your right that a cop isn't going to place a criminal on a "naughty step" or put him in time-out. However, he will also not give him a Godly spanking and reconsile with him afterword. Alternative froms of punishment other than spanking is not avoiding accountability; it is teaching a child to settle conflict without aggression. Aggression begets aggression. Consider that your boss gave you a few Godly smacks when you make a mistake at work. Would you learn from that mistake, or be angry and want to retaliate?<br /><br />Karen K.KarenK.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-28744349538315890492011-11-30T05:24:28.356-08:002011-11-30T05:24:28.356-08:00This is so excellent. Cynthia I have to say that y...This is so excellent. Cynthia I have to say that you are the first person that made me consider an alternative to spanking even before I had children. <br /><br />Also thank you for clarifying "spare the rod spoil the child" I always wondered where that came from since I never could find it in the bible!Kayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13169767757479816137noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-59064251242913455552011-11-20T19:21:09.616-08:002011-11-20T19:21:09.616-08:00When considering "Biblical" punishment, ...When considering "Biblical" punishment, an instructive passage is Jesus' response to the woman caught in adultery. According to the law, she deserved death for her sin. (I've always wondered what happened to her male partner -- who must've been present, since she was "caught in the very act of adultery" . . .)<br /><br />Instead of death, though, Jesus opts for mercy. After being convicted that none of them is without sin, the crowd departs. Jesus gently tells her to go and sin no more. <br /><br />I'm curious about how pro-spankers respond to this account in light of corporal punishment. Of course, using the "rod" isn't the same as the death penalty, but Jesus' actions and words raise questions about the role of mercy when physical punishment (stoning) is required by OT law.<br />NancyPeter and Nancyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10329947206142706470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-24024731720542835242011-11-20T17:26:24.649-08:002011-11-20T17:26:24.649-08:00HHW, This is really quite beautiful. I am not a r...HHW, This is really quite beautiful. I am not a religious person but was raised in a religious family and I still maintain a strong faith. One of the reasons that I feel away from the Church is that I could not reconcile things like this with what my heart tells me is right. I raised 3 of my own children and 2 others that I took in from families that were raising their children with the "rod" mentality and had lost control of their children. In both instances the parents asked me if I would help out but then never took the children back so I raised them through their teens. The kids both turned out beautifully and are now productive, loving members of society. All of my kids are doing well, none were raised with me as their "friend", they all had to deal with discipline when making poor choices but I could never have hit them. I remember all too well the scars of my youth, and the disdain I carried too long for the whoppings I got in the name of "love" when I was a child. I warn those that use it, don't kid yourself, you may raise great kids, my parents did, BUT I resent both of them (even though I was there at my mothers side til her dying breath) and the horrid memories are still fresh in my mind 40 years later. My parents followed very closely to the rod method explained in this blog (yet I didn't know at the time it was a "system") and I was not hit often but enough to carry a lot of resentment in my heart and eventually fall away from the Church. I still pray and read the bible everyday (well the bible part several times a week)but being with folks who condone this behavior is beyond what I could ever handle. The thoughtful discussion was very interesting and I look forward to the next addition tomorrow.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-17330930332123115292011-11-20T12:11:35.765-08:002011-11-20T12:11:35.765-08:00Denise, I understand and respect your desire for c...Denise, I understand and respect your desire for consistency both with Scripture and within the arguments themselves. My concern is that this back-and-forth is monopolizing the comment section and email may soon be the more appropriate forum for this continued discussion.<br /><br />"To summarize my contention, you paint an inappropriately literal view of the rod verses and allow absolutely no room for them to be literal."<br /><br />I believe that a merely literal view of these verses - whether that be the common literal view of "the rod is referring to a spanking" or the truly literal view of "it says to strike a young man with a thick rod" - causes parents to lose the rich wisdom and meaning they hold. <br /><br />"You assert at one point that the literal view does not even support corporal punishment and then at another point you assert that it does."<br /><br />The phrase I used was that the rod verses are the only verses that give "the appearance of" supporting corporal punishment; however, a more thorough look at these verses (both on their own and in conjunction with Scripture as a whole) shows otherwise. That would actually summarize my entire position and purpose of this series.<br /><br />"That is not true, I'll re-quote what you originally said: "Christ absolutely lived by Torah. Proverbs are not part of Torah. You seem to be suggesting otherwise?" Thus implying that Jesus did not live by the Proverbs."<br /><br />That wasn't the implication I intended. I had said that in response to SR's inclusion of Proverbs in the Law. They are two entirely different things and must be read in completely different ways. It is, in your words, the difference between "prescriptive" and "descriptive". What it ultimately comes down to, then, is an understanding of how Christ would have understood the Proverbs. SR was making the case that Christ would support us "harming our children". I fervently disagree.<br /><br />"Through the speeding ticket analogy, I am arguing your view that Jesus' atoning sacrifice takes away the need for any punishment here on earth. Going back to Luther's insights, Jesus took on all the punishment to bring us into right standing with God, but that does not mean we are not punished here on earth for our lack of active righteousness--just as Solomon states that the foolish deserve a rod for their backside."<br /><br />When I was delineating between discipline and punishment, I was referring specifically to parenting. Whether man-made punitive systems are in place on earth has no relation to how we should in turn raise our children. I understand that you correlate the ideas of the family as gov't and the sword as corporal punishment, but I disagree with that conclusion. (As Jesus said, all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.) I would correlate family more with the idea of a mini-church than a mini-gov't, with the idea that I as a parent raise my children in the knowledge and love of God.<br /><br />Luther's words are interesting; thank you for summarizing that. I wouldn't, however, take the idea of active righteousness (or bruising a child with the law) as requiring physical punishment. A parent can bring a pang to a child's moral conscience without the use of corporal punishment. Whether Solomon recommended a rod for the fool's (criminal's) back has no bearing on whether I apply one to a child.<br /><br />When the woman caught in adultery was brought to him, Christ did not say she did not deserve punishment, but he did say that he who was without sin himself can cast the first stone.<br /><br />I intend for Part 3 to be published tomorrow, which will expand on many of these ideas. I hope I have clarified my foundation in my first two points here, even if you still ultimately disagree with my conclusions.Hippie Housewifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14718357472343295031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-9520380970168838852011-11-20T08:53:11.832-08:002011-11-20T08:53:11.832-08:00I thought this was so great that I linked it from ...I thought this was so great that I linked it from my blog. Wonderfully said. Thank you.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11248820388460472577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-59815531931443413102011-11-20T07:25:43.156-08:002011-11-20T07:25:43.156-08:00HHW,
I apologize for not being patient for your t...HHW, <br />I apologize for not being patient for your third installment, but I believe discussion will be worthwhile even though in the meantime we seem to be dancing around each other. Debating online proves to be an arduous medium and may take us a couple times of repetition to understand each other, but I believe it's worth it. <br /><br />To summarize my contention, you paint an inappropriately literal view of the rod verses and allow absolutely no room for them to be literal. You assert at one point that the literal view does not even support corporal punishment and then at another point you assert that it does. I guess what drives me is that I want to make sure you hold your views consistently because you are influencing a lot of people's views through this series. <br /><br />Regarding proverbs and the law being of the same canon that Jesus lived by, you state: "Absolutely. I didn't say otherwise...I said it was not part of the Law. At this point you seem to be arguing against your own arguments." That is not true, I'll re-quote what you originally said: "Christ absolutely lived by Torah. Proverbs are not part of Torah. You seem to be suggesting otherwise?" Thus implying that Jesus did not live by the Proverbs. <br /><br />I stress the point of the law because people keep challenging the rod verses taken literally as not being in accordance with the Gospel because punishment is law-based. So here I stand, the Gospel goes deeper than the law (though not in a wishy-washy figurative way), but it does not disregard the law.<br /><br />Through the speeding ticket analogy, I am arguing your view that Jesus' atoning sacrifice takes away the need for any punishment here on earth. Going back to Luther's insights, Jesus took on all the punishment to bring us into right standing with God, but that does not mean we are not punished here on earth for our lack of active righteousness--just as Solomon states that the foolish deserve a rod for their backside. <br /><br />Sarah, I would take Spokane Realtor's comments to mean that ultimately, we deserve punishment for our sinful actions and for God to choose to also use it to teach and correct us is a grace and not a given, not a right that we can demand. <br /><br />GG, I don't see how the word youth would exclude children. And all I'm asking is for you show me where you received this information that it is mistranslated? There were examples stated earlier, but not proven. Again, I cannot take it on faith and I will not do the "homework" when the burden of proof is on you. <br /><br />I am not proof texting. I am challenging the understanding of the verses in question and by quoting other verses in the Bible I am proving against the claim that "there's absolutely no support in the rest of the Bible" for the claim of corporal punishment.Denisenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-75844948347861196272011-11-19T18:07:05.796-08:002011-11-19T18:07:05.796-08:00Wow, this is quite a discussion to stumble across ...Wow, this is quite a discussion to stumble across when I’ve never really given any serious thought to the topic before! I had no idea the debate surrounding whether or not using corporal punishment as a means to discipline was so polarized – although I shouldn’t be surprised. My loving, godly parents used spanking to teach me discipline as a child and I think I am better person because of their commitment to teaching me right from wrong. <br /><br />I don’t know if spanking is or isn’t biblical. However, I am very disturbed to see that this practice has been so misunderstood by some that children have been abused even to the point of death. I am even more disturbed to see God portrayed as one who punishes us for reasons other than to draw us back into relationship with Him. <br /><br /><i>“The spanking is not so they would repent, it is the punishment for their actions. If they repent that is good, but it is not the only reason they are being punished.“ (Nov. 17th, 1:52pm)</i><br /><br />I don’t understand how the above statement lines up with what you’ve written below:<br /><br /><i>“God doesn't change and punishment of His children (much of it physical) has been part of God's way of teaching His children since the beginning.” (Nov. 18th, 1:37pm)</i><br /><br />Do you see God as vengeful, punishing us out of anger? Why else would he choose to punish us other than to correct us? I hope I misunderstood, if you do get have the time to explain your point here to me again, SpokaneRealtor, I would appreciate you using speech that is grace seasoned with truth, as I assume we are brother and sister in Christ. <br /><br /><i>10For they [our earthly fathers] disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. 11All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.</i><br /><br />Interestingly, this passage goes on to address Esau selling his inheritance, as you spoke of earlier SpokaneRealtor, where the author of Hebrews refers to him as immoral and godless for selling his birthright. This surprised me.<br /><br />I'm glad to see a discussion that is encouraging us all to look deeper at the Truth of God's Word, it certainly has for me. Thank you all for the time you've spent writing these comments,<br /><br />SarahAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-1839895547376928672011-11-19T17:34:02.947-08:002011-11-19T17:34:02.947-08:00"As I've mentioned before, Proverbs were ..."As I've mentioned before, Proverbs were part of the canon that all Jewish males studied and lived by."<br /><br />Absolutely. I didn't say otherwise (that would be foolish, as Jesus himself quoted from Proverbs). I said it was not part of the Law. At this point you seem to be arguing against your own arguments.<br /><br />"I think you draw an unnecessary distinction between discipline and punishment. If you got a speeding ticket, you would pay a fine to the city. Would that not rightly be understood as punishment?"<br /><br />Yes, a speeding ticket would be punishment; that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. The distinction between discipline and punishment is an essential one. It is not a matter of splitting hairs. While punishment can be used as a form of discipline, discipline is a much broader term encompassing a number of disciplinary techniques.<br /><br />"you do not refute or even attempt to rebut the claims raised in our arguments"<br /><br />Denise, I have responded. You have found my arguments lacking. At this point, it is time to say enough is enough. You have offered your perspective, said your piece, and listed your points. Discussion is proving to be unfruitful. I will now respectfully ask that you either take further discussion to email (through the "Contact Me" tab at the top of the page) or let it go. Your comments are here for future readers to make use of as they will. Thank you for your valuable input on this important topic.Hippie Housewifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14718357472343295031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-2710666521717550862011-11-19T17:18:52.445-08:002011-11-19T17:18:52.445-08:00Denise
“You are making the claim of mistranslation...Denise<br />“You are making the claim of mistranslation so you need to provide the basis.”<br /><br />I make the claim of mistranslation because it is rendered as child in the English translation when it means ‘youth’ in almost every other context (EXCEPT where the child has been prematurely separated from his parents, as in examples already stated) in which it appears.<br /><br />Furthermore- what you are doing is prooftexting- you draw out peices of scripture which, takne alne seem to proove your veiw. all of scripture must all be taken together. It in it WHOLE describes and educates us as to the nture of our Creator and his love for us, and the terrible price he paid to redeem us. HHW has attempted to display how ridiculous it is to veiw proverbs specifically as something that you may either take literally or not as it suits your already held beliefs. <br /><br />SPR<br />I will be the first to say that I do not spend as much time as I would like in Scripture. I will NOT say that I am unfamiliar with it. Yes, I am reminded now that I was in error to use the word abolish. However, he did absolutely render the expanded Levirate law obsolete. This is dealt with extensively in Hebrews. <br /><br />“Jesus broke no laws of the Torah, please provide examples, If you think he broke even one law then he wasn't perfect and thus not the Messiah.”<br /><br />I am picking this statement, out of all you wrote, because it is the heart of the matter. Jesus broke the commandment to do no work on the Sabbath. Scripture also states that he did not sin. It is his lack of sin that makes him perfect, not his adherence to OT Law. He was sinless AND he broke the Sabbath Laws- whether it was the ‘hedge’ of oral tradition the leaders had created around the law or the Law itself- he still did not uphold what was accepted as law at that time in his own culture. He is Messiah because He IS GOD; not because he adhered to all of the Law. He was perfect- therefore he did not sin. <br /><br />As for the rest- HHW has explained it far better than I and I shall stop here. <br /><br />ggAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5051258436941012775.post-68770623533785669242011-11-19T17:15:01.935-08:002011-11-19T17:15:01.935-08:00Denise,
You should be scared that anyone would i...Denise, <br /><br />You should be scared that anyone would imply that you were using the Bible as a weapon. I, however, was not. I do realize that my post read that way, so I sincerely apologize! That was not my intent. My statement about open minded study was directed at *all* who read the Bible (including myself). I am very sorry that I did not clearly state that. <br /><br />I must disagree with you on the notion that I have ignored the logic presented here. I have not. Unfortunately you and I are seeing it on opposite sides of this debate. Up until a year ago, you and I would have seen eye to eye. I was very much pro spanking before I read deeper into the teachings of Christ. <br /><br />Again, I agree with you that Love and Grace should not be mutually exclusive to reason. We, as believers in Christ should always strive to include His Grace in all aspects of our life. <br />Far too many theologians throughout history have failed to do this, and as a result have done more damage in the name of God than they have done good. <br /><br />Again, I apologize for any offense, as it was not made purposefully.<br /><br />God bless!Little Red Hennoreply@blogger.com